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Post by kordax on Aug 13, 2008 11:45:16 GMT -5
The major goal of public education is to teach kids how to read, write, and do mathematics so they can be productive members of society.
Sugar, why not focus 1st on defining standards of learning grade by grade -- for example, what are the minimal math skills a 3rd grader must know & command before they're allowed to progress to the next grade level? And dittoes for every other grade & every other subject? "Members of [adult] society" learn very quickly (and kids should learn it much earlier) that promotions are mostly based on defined company standards set forth in written or oral communications from management -- measure up & you're in line for advancement but fail to measure up and your stuck in one spot while others move past you ....
Seems to me that working (as an educator) toward a goal where students are formed into "productive members of society" allows for all types of edu-mischief on the accountability front. Many students become productive as adults after public skools have failed to properly teach & educate them -- the winners learn on their own later on.
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Post by 502blue on Aug 13, 2008 12:14:38 GMT -5
What does this have to do with sight words? Ummm....I dont really know what this wacked super powers and complaining stuff is all about... but dont. Because, I seriously doubt you would tolerate me speaking to you in this manner/tone regarding your children. And I just wouldn't.. it's in poor taste. The truth hurts sometimes. Somebody needed to set you straight.LOL but homework.. has 0 factor in my considering GPS for our daughter. I listed my reason for GPS as my private school choice. Actually 2 reasons.. should you care to RE-read. This thread is ABOUT homework so naturally I tied your statement in with the subject at hand.Do you have children in public schools? I was a teacher in public schools for more than my fair share of years. Additionally, I hold a Bachelor of Science in Human Learning in addition to my master's degree. What exactly are your qualifications on the bad information you are espousing in this thread?_________________________________________________ Alright, Sugars responses are in bold. Slobbers are norm. First off, Sugar, you and I have had misinformation because you don't fully read the threads, you skim and pick up things here and there. I don't think you gave Slobber a chance before you attacked her. And yes, attack is the word. That was pretty lame. Then to reply that someone needed to set her straight? I am not surprised you aren't in the education field any longer. Education is about choices, opinions and homelife. The shit I was taught in history years ago is no longer even VALID. Education is not about reading, writing and math. There is a whole lot more to it than that. You have a bachelors in human learning. Did you learn from the "years ago" text books, or did you learn from dealing in todays society. My son could fail a written test out right, just because he doesn't like written tests. You give him that same test orally, and he will ace it everytime. I am pretty sure, given what I have read from Slobber, her kids are educated with her guiding. How many years were you a teacher in public schools, where was this, and what grade/subject did you teach? If you want to call out slobber on "bad info", then I think all this is relevant to back it up. Anyone can get a teaching job. Especially years ago when certain degrees weren't even required. Just because you have a degree in a subject, does not make you the novice. Experience happens for that. What is your masters ?
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 12:30:57 GMT -5
The major goal of public education is to teach kids how to read, write, and do mathematics so they can be productive members of society. Sugar, why not focus 1st on defining standards of learning grade by grade -- for example, what are the minimal math skills a 3rd grader must know & command before they're allowed to progress to the next grade level? And dittoes for every other grade & every other subject? "Members of [adult] society" learn very quickly (and kids should learn it much earlier) that promotions are mostly based on defined company standards set forth in written or oral communications from management -- measure up & you're in line for advancement but fail to measure up and your stuck in one spot while others move past you .... Seems to me that working (as an educator) toward a goal where students are formed into "productive members of society" allows for all types of edu-mischief on the accountability front. Many students become productive as adults after public skools have failed to properly teach & educate them -- the winners learn on their own later on. The standards that are defined should be the stepping stones to reaching the goal.
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Post by 502blue on Aug 13, 2008 12:31:51 GMT -5
The truth hurts sometimes. Somebody needed to set you straightheh, I just had to post that again. That's a wildman line if I have ever read one!
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 12:36:21 GMT -5
What does this have to do with sight words? Ummm....I dont really know what this wacked super powers and complaining stuff is all about... but dont. Because, I seriously doubt you would tolerate me speaking to you in this manner/tone regarding your children. And I just wouldn't.. it's in poor taste. The truth hurts sometimes. Somebody needed to set you straight.LOL but homework.. has 0 factor in my considering GPS for our daughter. I listed my reason for GPS as my private school choice. Actually 2 reasons.. should you care to RE-read. This thread is ABOUT homework so naturally I tied your statement in with the subject at hand.Do you have children in public schools? I was a teacher in public schools for more than my fair share of years. Additionally, I hold a Bachelor of Science in Human Learning in addition to my master's degree. What exactly are your qualifications on the bad information you are espousing in this thread?_________________________________________________ Alright, Sugars responses are in bold. Slobbers are norm. First off, Sugar, you and I have had misinformation because you don't fully read the threads, you skim and pick up things here and there. I don't think you gave Slobber a chance before you attacked her. And yes, attack is the word. That was pretty lame. Then to reply that someone needed to set her straight? I am not surprised you aren't in the education field any longer. Education is about choices, opinions and homelife. The shit I was taught in history years ago is no longer even VALID. Education is not about reading, writing and math. There is a whole lot more to it than that. You have a bachelors in human learning. Did you learn from the "years ago" text books, or did you learn from dealing in todays society. My son could fail a written test out right, just because he doesn't like written tests. You give him that same test orally, and he will ace it everytime. I am pretty sure, given what I have read from Slobber, her kids are educated with her guiding. How many years were you a teacher in public schools, where was this, and what grade/subject did you teach? If you want to call out slobber on "bad info", then I think all this is relevant to back it up. Anyone can get a teaching job. Especially years ago when certain degrees weren't even required. Just because you have a degree in a subject, does not make you the novice. Experience happens for that. What is your masters ? 1st- slobber came off as seriously misinformed onthe topic. 2nd- I only gave my credentials because SHE ASKED FOR THEM. 3rd- not anyone can get a teaching job anymore. A person must have a degree in TN and they must be licensed by the state. 4th- you said "Just because you have a degree in a subject, does not make you the novice. Experience happens for that. " that doesn't make any kind of sense. I think you mean that a degree doesn't make one an expert and I AGREE. I wouldn't even claim to be an expert but I have a lot of experience in a public school system and it pisses me off that some people go off when they don't even know what the hell they are talking about. 5th- Yeah, she tried to back track her way out of her idiotic statements but they were already out there. Get over it.
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 12:37:47 GMT -5
The truth hurts sometimes. Somebody needed to set you straightheh, I just had to post that again. That's a wildman line if I have ever read one! Boo hoo. Am I supposed to cry to mommy now?
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 12:40:19 GMT -5
The major goal of public education is to teach kids how to read, write, and do mathematics so they can be productive members of society. Sugar, why not focus 1st on defining standards of learning grade by grade -- for example, what are the minimal math skills a 3rd grader must know & command before they're allowed to progress to the next grade level? And dittoes for every other grade & every other subject? "Members of [adult] society" learn very quickly (and kids should learn it much earlier) that promotions are mostly based on defined company standards set forth in written or oral communications from management -- measure up & you're in line for advancement but fail to measure up and your stuck in one spot while others move past you .... Seems to me that working (as an educator) toward a goal where students are formed into "productive members of society" allows for all types of edu-mischief on the accountability front. Many students become productive as adults after public skools have failed to properly teach & educate them -- the winners learn on their own later on. I agree with your statement. Upon reflection I have a question for you... When children graduate from highschool and they do not become productive adults, do you think the schools have done their job adequately? To clarify--- If a child graduates from high school and cannot read well or perform simple mathematics, have the schools done their job?
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Post by 502blue on Aug 13, 2008 13:02:46 GMT -5
What is your masters in and how many years were you in the public school system teaching and what subject/grade?
I did not read where she tried to back track out of her statements, she has stood by her statementsl I just didn't read them as you did, apparently. So I don't have anything to "get over". Damn you're awfully defensive.
Personally, if I was so passionate about the public school system or the learning environment as you seem to be, I would still be in that profession. Why did you quit?
AND if a child graduates lacking the simple skills, it is not the schools that haven't done their job, it is the parent.
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Post by 502blue on Aug 13, 2008 13:04:05 GMT -5
The truth hurts sometimes. Somebody needed to set you straightheh, I just had to post that again. That's a wildman line if I have ever read one! Boo hoo. Am I supposed to cry to mommy now? If that's your gig, who am I to say
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Post by kordax on Aug 13, 2008 13:31:44 GMT -5
To clarify--- If a child graduates from high school and cannot read well or perform simple mathematics, have the schools done their job?
Granting students an HS diploma who can't read or write (again, based on the defined, grade-by-grade minimal standards of learning) is edu-fraud and should be punishable by having funds withheld from the offending skool system or mandating that the skool system pay for parents' school choices when their kids (still in the system) opt out. If there's one central tenant of NCLB that I despise, it's the mandate to keep all children at "grade level" or above -- I'd like to see children held back at the earliest possible time when the skool year ends & they've failed to master a subject(s) and I'd like to see teachers & their unions demand the ability to do so.
But, the short answer is NO -- fraudulently awarding a HS diploma to a student is a failure of the system. But the converse doesn't mean that skools have fulfilled their mission ....
If education were seen as an assembly line -- K hands off a finished product to the 1st grade -- 1st grade hands off a finished product to the 2nd grade & so on until a 12th grader is handed off to the forked road -- one fork leads to the workforce, another to community college or a for-profit quick-paced school, another to a state 4-year institution, and another to a competitive college of university. The only fork a public HS grad can take where the public skools alone can take credit or blame for their education "product" that they've produced is the workforce track; all of the other options involve further higher education BEFORE the student becomes eligible to be considered " a productive member of society."
One of the collaborative efforts that I've been involved in is getting skool administrators together with the admissions departments at the college or community college level to kick around thoughts as to where students are prepared for college right out of HS & where they aren't and we've discussed what specifics can be improved .... Right now, our local system pays -0- price for "graduating" dunces who must take a series of remedial courses for -0- credit when they go to college. Teachers, principals & administrators pay no price for scamming dollars out of the government, socially promoting dunces from grade to grade, keeping the money & dumping illiterates on community colleges & open enrollment, non-competitive universities.
This must change.
I consider a school system to be fulfilling their missions when colleges say that most of their graduates are very qualified for admittance or employers say that HS grads are adding value to their workforces, but I never trust the self-assessment educrats use whenever they claim that kids are learning everything they're supposed to all the while that remedial students are spilling out of the system as far as the eye can see ....
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Post by 502blue on Aug 13, 2008 13:53:22 GMT -5
Kordax , I would lay alot of that on the parent not taking involvement with their childs education. I would have known years ago, if my kids weren't on the track of beginning college prepared. As it stands, my daughter will be starting college with all first year classes completed and credits in the higher courses. My son will stand the same. If not for me, they would have skimmed thru and probably on the remedial course track. A free education is just that. We are guaranteed an education. No more, no less. I wouldn't expect a school to look out for my childs future. That is the need for the remedial courses, their aren't parents like us everywhere. For some, i would say school is a way to get their kid out of their hair. It takes the parent, not the school. The public school system would love to say "look what we did", but they didn't. If my kid does good, I take the credit. If my kid does bad, I blame the school system? Not fair.
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 14:46:20 GMT -5
What is your masters in and how many years were you in the public school system teaching and what subject/grade? I did not read where she tried to back track out of her statements, she has stood by her statementsl I just didn't read them as you did, apparently. So I don't have anything to "get over". Damn you're awfully defensive. Personally, if I was so passionate about the public school system or the learning environment as you seem to be, I would still be in that profession. Why did you quit? AND if a child graduates lacking the simple skills, it is not the schools that haven't done their job, it is the parent. That's none of your business. This is a public message board and nobody is obligated to provide personal information. I provided as much as I'm willing. You only want to use it to attack.
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Post by 502blue on Aug 13, 2008 14:53:58 GMT -5
I'm not using them to attack, I was asking so you could back up your assumption that she didn't know what she was talking about. Especially with the phrase "somebody had to set you straight" you threw at her.
And you're correct, no one has to give their background info, but you were using it as a means to discredit what you called her "misinformation" Personally, all I read that she typed was her own opinion. Which she is entitled to, and no one has to set her straight on that.
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Post by slobberchops on Aug 13, 2008 14:57:35 GMT -5
I was a teacher in public schools for more than my fair share of years. Additionally, I hold a Bachelor of Science in Human Learning in addition to my master's degree. What exactly are your qualifications on the bad information you are espousing in this thread? I believe you asked for my qualifications.. and not the other way around. So get your lies straight. I NEVER asked for your experience, education NOR IMPUT.. regarding my experience in the public school system. mmmmmKay! 1st- slobber came off as seriously misinformed onthe topic. Sharing my experience is misinformation. It's called getting to know people. I'm a big advocate for academic success.. but YOU are one of the prime examples as to why I feel "social skills" are just as important in early education as ABC's and 123's. 2nd- I only gave my credentials because SHE ASKED FOR THEM. FIB much?... I DID NOT!! I asked if YOU had any children in public school. comprehension is clearly a problem?... lets hope it's not hereditary. 3rd- not anyone can get a teaching job anymore. A person must have a degree in TN and they must be licensed by the state.Well.. thats not true in GA. Associates degree, plus 6week certification @ Dalton college and 1 year in class training.. and wha la! I'm a certified teacher. **** Thunder-struck... at the very idea of you being a teacher... LMAO! ....anyone else hear it? 4th- you said "Just because you have a degree in a subject, does not make you the novice. Experience happens for that. " that doesn't make any kind of sense. I think you mean that a degree doesn't make one an expert and I AGREE. I wouldn't even claim to be an expert but I have a lot of experience in a public school system and it pisses me off that some people go off when they don't even know what the hell they are talking about.I concur with you on this one. Your insatiable need to set me straight is taking it's tole with my patience. Your always going OFF on my experiences or opinions. Have some cuth. 5th- Yeah, she tried to back track her way out of her idiotic statements but they were already out there. Get over it.come again? I've not backed out of anything. RE-read! Your crazed need to find something thats not there.. is driving you to reading errors. Or are you just a BOLD FACED LIAR. which is it? ya know.. maybe time is starting to show itself.. Isn't that what you said, : Time will tell.. you will see how slobber starts crap. ... bla (u-lie) bla (more lies) bla (bigger lies). It's showing alright.. showing all the readers how YOU are the CONstant instigator and LOUD MOUTHED antagonizer -- who disparages everything I say. How much more am I suppose to just sit back and read about myself .. from a LIAR..before I say enough already.
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 14:59:16 GMT -5
To clarify--- If a child graduates from high school and cannot read well or perform simple mathematics, have the schools done their job?Granting students an HS diploma who can't read or write (again, based on the defined, grade-by-grade minimal standards of learning) is edu-fraud and should be punishable by having funds withheld from the offending skool system or mandating that the skool system pay for parents' school choices when their kids (still in the system) opt out. If there's one central tenant of NCLB that I despise, it's the mandate to keep all children at "grade level" or above -- I'd like to see children held back at the earliest possible time when the skool year ends & they've failed to master a subject(s) and I'd like to see teachers & their unions demand the ability to do so. But, the short answer is NO -- fraudulently awarding a HS diploma to a student is a failure of the system. But the converse doesn't mean that skools have fulfilled their mission .... If education were seen as an assembly line -- K hands off a finished product to the 1st grade -- 1st grade hands off a finished product to the 2nd grade & so on until a 12th grader is handed off to the forked road -- one fork leads to the workforce, another to community college or a for-profit quick-paced school, another to a state 4-year institution, and another to a competitive college of university. The only fork a public HS grad can take where the public skools alone can take credit or blame for their education "product" that they've produced is the workforce track; all of the other options involve further higher education BEFORE the student becomes eligible to be considered " a productive member of society." One of the collaborative efforts that I've been involved in is getting skool administrators together with the admissions departments at the college or community college level to kick around thoughts as to where students are prepared for college right out of HS & where they aren't and we've discussed what specifics can be improved .... Right now, our local system pays -0- price for "graduating" dunces who must take a series of remedial courses for -0- credit when they go to college. Teachers, principals & administrators pay no price for scamming dollars out of the government, socially promoting dunces from grade to grade, keeping the money & dumping illiterates on community colleges & open enrollment, non-competitive universities. This must change. I consider a school system to be fulfilling their missions when colleges say that most of their graduates are very qualified for admittance or employers say that HS grads are adding value to their workforces, but I never trust the self-assessment educrats use whenever they claim that kids are learning everything they're supposed to all the while that remedial students are spilling out of the system as far as the eye can see .... I agree with most of your commentary and I admire your commitment to going above and beyond. However, being a productive member of society does not necessarily mean 'being college ready.' College is not right for every student as you seem to acknowledge. Graduates can be productive without college (although it is not as likely). I suppose your definition of productive and mine may be somewhat different. To me, being productive means supporting one's self and family. Possibly contributing to society in a meaningful way. I also think that college attendance is productive because it is preparation for the future. If it weren't productive, why do it?
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 15:00:42 GMT -5
I'm not using them to attack, I was asking so you could back up your assumption that she didn't know what she was talking about. Especially with the phrase "somebody had to set you straight" you threw at her. And you're correct, no one has to give their background info, but you were using it as a means to discredit what you called her "misinformation" Personally, all I read that she typed was her own opinion. Which she is entitled to, and no one has to set her straight on that. Wrong. She asked if I had kids in public schools and I gave her background information to show that I have experience in public school systems.
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Post by 502blue on Aug 13, 2008 15:10:18 GMT -5
I was a teacher in public schools for more than my fair share of years. Additionally, I hold a Bachelor of Science in Human Learning in addition to my master's degree. What exactly are your qualifications on the bad information you are espousing in this thread? Actually, your not very old, so public schools tells me that you were at a few schools, not just one. It also tells me, if you were at a few schools, for a few years (wouldn't say fair share, you seriously aren't that old), teaching wasn't your gig. A Human Learning BS would probably consist of philosophy of something, music appreciation or history, probably an art class, yadda, yadda. Not stating that a degree isn't a degree, just stating that you are using that to discredit someones opinion. I would think you need probably the degrees and Masters in education like my mother has to seriously discredit this type of info.
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Post by 502blue on Aug 13, 2008 15:15:52 GMT -5
I'm not using them to attack, I was asking so you could back up your assumption that she didn't know what she was talking about. Especially with the phrase "somebody had to set you straight" you threw at her. And you're correct, no one has to give their background info, but you were using it as a means to discredit what you called her "misinformation" Personally, all I read that she typed was her own opinion. Which she is entitled to, and no one has to set her straight on that. Wrong. She asked if I had kids in public schools and I gave her background information to show that I have experience in public school systems. FYI, having a child in the system is a whole lot different than being a teacher in that system. You are just one teacher, students have many, many teachers throughout their education careers.
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Post by slobberchops on Aug 13, 2008 15:15:56 GMT -5
She gives/offers nothing personal ...out of her own paranoia to what SHE has done to OTHERS. But I dont give a crap what her academic background is. She's got the social skills of a 2 year old.
502Blue -- I think it's a collaborated effort. Parents and teachers working together. My kids are both in Jr. High. And if a teacher knows your there for the long haul. I just know my son would not be where he is today.. had it not been for a few meaningful teachers who took notice and cared about his situation.
My homework rants have to do with this: (better quote me .. sugar .. cause here's my deal with homework! ... ready?
It just seems back-wards from how it was when I sent to school. no homework to gradual increases.. Almost as a maturing process. But now a days.. it's the exact opposite. Almost as a dumbing down affect.
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Post by slobberchops on Aug 13, 2008 15:19:56 GMT -5
I do not think that k-5 graders need to be doing 2 hours of homework a night. While Jr. high and high schoolers rarely have any. (period)
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Post by kordax on Aug 13, 2008 15:39:08 GMT -5
I do not think that k-5 graders need to be doing 2 hours of homework a night. While Jr. high and high schoolers rarely have any. (period)
If Jr. High students are being assigned homework, they're being cheated out of the education that the state is claiming to provide. I'd seriously want to meet with all the teachers & administrators (after talking with the teachers) to hear their side of the no homework situation -- something is wrong -- either your kids aren't telling you the truth (been there, done that) or the skool has some very lazy standards that can only infect your children rather than add educational value to them ....
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 15:58:54 GMT -5
I think 2 hours is reasonable for the older elementary grades just not every single night. Not so much for Kindergarten, First, and Second.
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 16:01:15 GMT -5
I was a teacher in public schools for more than my fair share of years. Additionally, I hold a Bachelor of Science in Human Learning in addition to my master's degree. What exactly are your qualifications on the bad information you are espousing in this thread? Actually, your not very old, so public schools tells me that you were at a few schools, not just one. It also tells me, if you were at a few schools, for a few years (wouldn't say fair share, you seriously aren't that old), teaching wasn't your gig. A Human Learning BS would probably consist of philosophy of something, music appreciation or history, probably an art class, yadda, yadda. Not stating that a degree isn't a degree, just stating that you are using that to discredit someones opinion. I would think you need probably the degrees and Masters in education like my mother has to seriously discredit this type of info. Does Bachelor of SCIENCE tell you anything? Philosophy? Music? You are really stretching it. I am through discussing it with you. You are making a lot of ASSumptions with very little knowledge to work with. It's not worth my time.
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Post by slobberchops on Aug 13, 2008 16:03:24 GMT -5
I do not think that k-5 graders need to be doing 2 hours of homework a night. While Jr. high and high schoolers rarely have any. (period) If Jr. High students are being assigned homework, they're being cheated out of the education that the state is claiming to provide. I'd seriously want to meet with all the teachers & administrators (after talking with the teachers) to hear their side of the no homework situation -- something is wrong -- either your kids aren't telling you the truth (been there, done that) or the skool has some very lazy standards that can only infect your children rather than add educational value to them .... chuckles-- at my kids not telling me the truth. Because for the most part, my kids are very honest. (to a fault.. some would think.) I have to say my only homework experience has been k-7. I assumed the homework would increase with each grade. That was until today. ** Just this morning: My child's 8th-grade homeroom teacher called to introduce herself and see if I had any questions. So, I mentioned to her about my son saying there would be hardly no homework assignments unless they didn't finish in class. She said, "he's right.. I know it seems strange but homework was becoming a issue for a lot of students. The county had to take in account, the living arrangments and enviroment and other factors, when deciding our homework policy for this year." Yes, I hit the floor. It was only a few moments later.. I posted my agreement with copper.. regarding homework. So what do I do Kordax... this is "county". I already pay out of county tuition for my children to attend. Only because the other county is 10x worse.
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Post by sugarcane on Aug 13, 2008 16:14:44 GMT -5
Slobber, have you considered assigning the kids homework yourself? If the teacher won't assign it, you make them do it. Old text books are easy to find at thrift stores and isn't there a school supply place out in East Brainard? That is exactly what I would do in your situation.
The other solutions are to 1- talk to the principal and the school board about the homework policy and/or 2- take your kid to another school that cares more about their students' educations.
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