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Post by Fredo on Oct 5, 2010 8:57:48 GMT -5
Evidently, people are raiding their 401k plans to pay for Jr. to go to university. that just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. money.cnn.com/2010/10/05/news/economy/Sallie_Mae/index.htm?hpt=T2I'm really on the fence with this one. Why should I pay for little Fredo's higher education? If he's got the chops, he should be able to get scholarships and such to do it. It's a fairly hotly debated subject among my peers and I'm curious to know what you guys are doing.
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 5, 2010 9:13:00 GMT -5
and if he doesn't have chops then he's screwed... you make too much for him to qualifiy for FA so he either gets raped by a loan... or he takes 12 years to get a 4 year degrees because he has to work 2 jobs to pay for it... *shrug*
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Post by Fredo on Oct 5, 2010 9:21:35 GMT -5
and if he doesn't have chops then he's screwed... you make too much for him to qualifiy for FA so he either gets raped by a loan... or he takes 12 years to get a 4 year degrees because he has to work 2 jobs to pay for it... *shrug* . That's one argument, but it's been well proven that a person can work and still get a 4 year degree in four years. Even with that, what does he really have? A four year degree is the new high school equivalency and has virtually no value in the marketplace. I can't think of a single person who has only a bachelors degree and works in his alleged field of expertise.
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Post by manlyman on Oct 5, 2010 9:47:09 GMT -5
Think of me.
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Post by raphael on Oct 5, 2010 9:49:20 GMT -5
and if he doesn't have chops then he's screwed... you make too much for him to qualifiy for FA so he either gets raped by a loan... or he takes 12 years to get a 4 year degrees because he has to work 2 jobs to pay for it... *shrug* . Or they can make great grades in high school and thank god get all kinds of scholarships for doing so. We only saved up around 6k for our two kids which would have not even gotten them through one year at UTC. My sisters kids went and are going to UT and tuition there is a whole lot higher than UTC so even though they got scholarships she still had to pay the rest and I don't think she had to borrow and I'm not sure if she used a 529. Two parents both working at TVA in her case shouldn't have a problem. I'd still save for the little Fredo in case he doesn't "have the chops" and get the grades. You'd be surprised how many can't even get a lottery scholarship or keep up their grades to keep it. This way you would CYA if you know what I mean.
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Post by CoffeeShooter on Oct 5, 2010 9:51:25 GMT -5
That is exactly what happened to me. Half way through my career the credential changed to a master's level that wasn't available in Chattanooga. I was grandfathered into a few positions but eventually just gave up. My salary was 1/3 that of recent graduates that I was interviewing or training to work with/for me. I transitioned into marketing for a while but even that was disappointing. The hubby had a similar problem. He completed his master's degree but the state educational requirements changed while he was in school. He was following a course guideline given to him by UTC but not advised when the course requirements changed. He found out AFTER he paid Nashville $1800 (of which only 1/2 was refundable) to take the licensing tests. When my daughter took 4 years to complete 4 semesters after a series of failed attempts in college I decided to spend her college fund on myself. She's back in school now but her grandmother is paying and I am helping a little bit at a time. She's proven for the past 1&1/2 years that she's a good student so most likely I can convince the hubby to kick in some more funds if she opts for grad school. I wish it was different for us but it isn't ... so we proceed ..
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Post by manlyman on Oct 5, 2010 10:04:47 GMT -5
But seriously.
My kids have gone/are going to college on their own dime. (I did and so can they) I do send them $200/month for some extra spending money, pay for their car insurance & gas as long as they keep their grades up. They have/had scholarships mostly & a couple of small loans. Over and above the lottery scholarships there are scads of other scholarships out there if you look for them. Both my kids have academic scholarships (my son a full ride, my daughter a 75% ride). My daughter got some extra money because she is a girl and the private donor wanted to attract more girls into this particular field of study. There are always work study programs at the universities. My son was an RA (resident assistant) on a floor of his dorm. He received free housing in a room by himself as payment. (since his scholarship covered housing this was cash in his pocket) Then there is the more traditional work/study program. I went to school and studied during the day and worked full time at night. It was tough but VERY satisfying when I graduated. "I did it my way".
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Post by Fredo on Oct 5, 2010 10:09:40 GMT -5
But seriously. My kids have gone/are going to college on their own dime. (I did and so can they) I do send them $200/month for some extra spending money, pay for their car insurance & gas as long as they keep their grades up. They have/had scholarships mostly & a couple of small loans. Over and above the lottery scholarships there are scads of other scholarships out there if you look for them. Both my kids have academic scholarships (my son a full ride, my daughter a 75% ride). My daughter got some extra money because she is a girl and the private donor wanted to attract more girls into this particular field of study. There are always work study programs at the universities. My son was an RA (resident assistant) on a floor of his dorm. He received free housing in a room by himself as payment. (since his scholarship covered housing this was cash in his pocket) Then there is the more traditional work/study program. I went to school and studied during the day and worked full time at night. It was tough but VERY satisfying when I graduated. "I did it my way". That's exactly what I mean. I don't mind sending my boy a little spending money. My mom sent me a little cash while I was in school but I just don't think it's a good idea to cripple my own retirement so that my boy can get a degree in history and make $32k a year. If he has to work for it, he's a heck of a lot more likely to educate himself in a way that will earn him a living. There are way too many 30 year old adolescents out there and I think a lot of that is owing to never having had any real responsibility until age 25.
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 5, 2010 10:24:55 GMT -5
and if he doesn't have chops then he's screwed... you make too much for him to qualifiy for FA so he either gets raped by a loan... or he takes 12 years to get a 4 year degrees because he has to work 2 jobs to pay for it... *shrug* . That's one argument, but it's been well proven that a person can work and still get a 4 year degree in four years. Even with that, what does he really have? A four year degree is the new high school equivalency and has virtually no value in the marketplace. I can't think of a single person who has only a bachelors degree and works in his alleged field of expertise. i'll tell you what... he'd have a damn sight more with it than he'll ever have without it... times have changed just in the 19 years i've been in my industry... unless you've got 3-5 years experience... then we want you to possess a 4 year college degree... simply to work in our customer service department... or to get a job in wine/liquor sales... what used to be entry-level... in one sense i think it's ridiculous... but then i take into account the stupidity of the average american... at least the ones i encounter on various discussion boards on the internet... and i quickly re-evalutate the requirement... *heavysigh* p.s. your not-really-an-elitist-yuppie-scum is showing... .
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 5, 2010 10:30:28 GMT -5
i agree that it's a bad idea to suck out 401K money... the key is to plan ahead on your own...
MD has some sort of savings plan for parents to save college money similar to the 401K... i think it has something to do with freezing tuition rates too but not quite sure... ;D
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Post by Fredo on Oct 5, 2010 10:41:15 GMT -5
That's exactly what I mean about the dilution of the degree. Who's better off; A person who spent $40k on a useless bachelors degree so he could be a liquor salesman or a person who made use of that four years to get paid and have the experience. I'm not sure I know the answer, but it's a valid question. I know people with degrees who have never made more than $30k and I know guys with GEDs who are knocking down six figures. This has got me noodling on the numbers again. Let's say that a 4 year degree costs $25K and a person who works during those same four years makes an additional 15k per year and saves 4 of that. At the end of four years person A has no money and gets a job making 25 k as a liquor salesman. Person B still has his regular job, but also has $41k in the bank. It's hard to make the case that a bachelor's degree is better than work and diligence for the four years.
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Post by Sgt K USMC on Oct 5, 2010 10:57:32 GMT -5
Have him sign up for a two year tour in the Army Reserves in the field he wants to further study once he gets out. While he is in the reserves he is getting paid to go to school, gets to stay near home, learns discipline etc.
In this way he also learns about the job OJT style, he learns the discipline that most college kids don't have and he gets the GI Bill to cover most, if not all, of his expenses once he finishes his two years of service.
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 5, 2010 12:06:59 GMT -5
That's exactly what I mean about the dilution of the degree. Who's better off; A person who spent $40k on a useless bachelors degree so he could be a liquor salesman or a person who made use of that four years to get paid and have the experience. I'm not sure I know the answer, but it's a valid question. I know people with degrees who have never made more than $30k and I know guys with GEDs who are knocking down six figures. problem #1... the person without the degree... cannot get the job to work the 4yrs to get the experience... it's the catch-22 of this type of issue... 4yrs experiece working at Payless or Krystal won't get you much... unless you want retail or restuarant management... problem #2... no way is person B going to save 15K per year... unless he's living home with mommy and not partying his $$ away... plus he likely will still have problem #1... so he'll have some savings.... but experience...? .
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 5, 2010 12:10:25 GMT -5
Have him sign up for a two year tour in the Army Reserves in the field he wants to further study once he gets out. While he is in the reserves he is getting paid to go to school, gets to stay near home, learns discipline etc. In this way he also learns about the job OJT style, he learns the discipline that most college kids don't have and he gets the GI Bill to cover most, if not all, of his expenses once he finishes his two years of service. long as he doesn't die or get horriblly maimed... and as long as he retains his sanity... .
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Post by Fredo on Oct 5, 2010 12:18:38 GMT -5
Nonsense. An 18 year old can get a crap job at a fast food joint, in construction, or in retail and if he comes to work every day and does what he's supposed to do, he'll be marketable.
I didn't say he would save 15k. I said he could save 4k per year. That's possible in a cheap apartment with a roommate if one keeps his partying under control.
4 years of work experience and a glowing letter of recommendation from one's boss can go a very long way for a person. I'd take the guy who's worked hard for four years over the newly minted BA who's spent the last four years building beer funnels any day.
I'm not saying that a four year degree has no value. What I'm saying is that it's not worth the price that a lot of people pay to get one.
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Post by cvhs67 on Oct 5, 2010 13:17:04 GMT -5
Depends on the person.
Rush Limbaugh only finished High School, he's a bazillionaire.
We have 4 sons, 2 have Masters, one has a Bachelors, and one graduated Central High and started a landscaping business. All are happy. The ones that went to college paid for it themselves, the Commander and I told them we would pay for the first semester to get them started, then they were on their own. That made all the difference. They paid for their bad grades...so they didn't get any.
We sent them Ramen noodles from time to time so they wouldn't starve.
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 5, 2010 13:31:15 GMT -5
Nonsense. An 18 year old can get a crap job at a fast food joint, in construction, or in retail and if he comes to work every day and does what he's supposed to do, he'll be marketable. yeah... he may be marketable... but not nearly as marketable as his is with the degree... and likely not very marketable in other industries... when i said "unless you've got 3-5yrs experience" i meant in the position &/or industry... i did not mean 4yrs flippin' burgers or hammerin' nails... i see where i misread, thanks... but... you are assuming that an 18 year old kid has 25K to begin with... NOT!! and you are also assuming that an 18 year old kid is going to save 4K per annum... not many, IMO... you'd take one... one that wants to hammer nails... but what if one wants to do something bigger, better, faster, more...? .
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Post by Fredo on Oct 5, 2010 14:57:45 GMT -5
I was speaking to the $25k that he or his parents would have spent educating him.
There are a lot more jobs in my business than nail drivers and lumber carriers. My electrician and plumber probably make more than I do. There are an awful lot of people out there who make a very good living without a degree of any kind and a lot of people with basic university credentials who don't make crap.
Part of having an overall plan is thinking through the options. What if little Fredo decides that higher education isn't for him? He needs to have a plan for making his own living, 'cause he sure isn't living here when he's 30.
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Post by manlyman on Oct 5, 2010 15:27:34 GMT -5
Oh, and if you think you can get a 4-year degree for $25k, you are living in the '80's. UTK is about $15k/year (including dorm and meal plan, books, fees, etc, etc) Raph can probably tell you what UTC is.
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 5, 2010 15:33:36 GMT -5
There are a lot more jobs in my business than nail drivers and lumber carriers. My electrician and plumber probably make more than I do. There are an awful lot of people out there who make a very good living without a degree of any kind and a lot of people with basic university credentials who don't make crap. but your electrician and your plumber are skilled workmen and they've already been schooled and passed testing to be licensed so this really isn't about that kind of worker. we were speaking of entry level 18 year olds working for 4 years to gain the "experience" of a college graduate. little Fredo might not know what he wants to be when he grows up until he's just about grown up or shortly after. additionally, what little Fredo wants to do might not be feasable if he won't qualifiy for a scholarship or if he can't afford the type of school he needs. it is YOUR job to help plan for little Fredo's future so that he's not left faltering if his dreams fall flat. don't think for a minute that you only signed of for 18 years... .
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Post by raphael on Oct 5, 2010 15:49:40 GMT -5
Oh, and if you think you can get a 4-year degree for $25k, you are living in the '80's. UTK is about $15k/year (including dorm and meal plan, books, fees, etc, etc) Raph can probably tell you what UTC is. I think it's around $8k but that's in state and not including dorms.
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Post by Fredo on Oct 6, 2010 6:57:53 GMT -5
Oh, and if you think you can get a 4-year degree for $25k, you are living in the '80's. UTK is about $15k/year (including dorm and meal plan, books, fees, etc, etc) Raph can probably tell you what UTC is. I was just plucking a number out of the air, but the more expensive the degree, the more valid the argument against it. $60k for a degree that gets you a $30k job is not much of a bargain.
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 6, 2010 7:01:10 GMT -5
most degrees cost the same as one pays by semester hour and not by major...
and... $60K for a degree for a $30K job a waste...? at 5 years one has earned $150K minimum with that $60K investment... and you dont' think that is a bargain...?
wow.
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Post by Fredo on Oct 6, 2010 7:07:43 GMT -5
most degrees cost the same as one pays by semester hour and not by major... and... $60K for a degree for a $30K job a waste...? at 5 years one has earned $150K minimum with that $60K investment... and you dont' think that is a bargain...? wow. . You, incorrectly, assume that a person would be unemployed without said degree. I can make $30k cutting grass, get four extra years of work plus save the $60k, so at the end of four years, I'm at least $120k better off. That's a pretty good advantage f a person takes advantage of it. People with 4 year degrees have statistically higher lifetime earnings, but that could easily be an effect of being, generally, more disciplined people.
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Post by chatornookie on Oct 6, 2010 7:12:09 GMT -5
we're talking an 18 year old kid... if he is going to make an average of $577.00 a week cutting grass... then he is really going to have to make $1154.00 a week during yard season... i wish him good luck with that... .
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